So very true!!!!

[DevilDog#1]

Divide and conquire!

[Chrispy]

My Anthem

My one is in two languages. But I will do this one.

God of Nations at thy feet
In the bonds of love we meet
Hear our voices we entreat
God defend our freeland

God Pacifics tripple star
From the sharfs of strife and war
Make her praises heard afar
God defend New Zealand.

Pacifics, that sounds cool.
There was a Canadian lady once who was trying to sing this anthem when she was at a snow hockey game. Did not know half of the words, and slipped over on the ice and injured herself.

Chris_OJB_DF645 --This song

[Erik]

Thank you Lee Greenwood.

[Dr. Bullet]

Like Mike, when I saw this thread, I though "stay out of it", but then I thought "what the heck, it'll be fun". So then I was thinking...err, never mind

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I take it that the problem is conforming to immigrants and their wishes, thus being poltically correct. Assuming that is so, I'll go from there.

My opinion on the issue is this: when one goes to another country, one tries to at least be inoffensive. For instance, on one of my Mexico trips, I was told that a certain village found it to be socially unacceptable to wear shorts. Not wishing to offend the people, I observed their tradition and kept from offending the villagers. What I did not do is flaunt my individuality or American culture by wearing shorts.

This is not to say that I expect immigrants to partake in our traditions- far from it. I gladly extend them the privilige of being able to practice their own traditions because that's what makes our culture rich and adds to it. However, for immigrants to come here, treat those priviliges as a right, then expect me to abstain from my own traditions in deference to theirs is unacceptable. Our traditions go part and parcel with the country, and seeing as the immigrants are the ones coming here, they should understand that. If the native traditions are so offensive, then they can go somewhere where they aren't offended. Simply put, if they don't like the country, they can find another- no more, no less.

[Lakie]

America was established because of the religious and social intolerances of the Church and England and The British Monarch, it was a place where people could come a practise their traditions and religion freely. Although now it seems that the US has truned into what it was established to get away from, that is, unless you are part of the majorty then you will be "persecuted" for it.

Any american resident/citizen has the right to communicate in whatever language they want, the declaration of independance states that "all men are created equal" which means you are not superior, and hence not in a position to tell other to learn a language because it pleases you.. Its called the freedom of speech, 1st amendment....

Immigrants have done alot for the United States, think about how much richer your life is just by being exposed to the foods of different cultures, but according to the arguments here, thats a moral outrage, immigrants should conform to american traditions, its a travesty that they eat foods typical of their culture, if they want to live in America they should eat purely amercian foods!

BD, the labels of native-american, latin-american etc etc is something largely promoted by the government for use in things like census data and the like and not by people of the groups themselves, even so, its not a bad thing that people want to be associated with race as well as country, it makes sence that they are proud of their heritage as they are of being american. I see no difference between that and say, describing yourself as english, irish, scottish or welsh as opposed to being from the United Kingdom...

I better stop there...

[BADDOG]

Originally posted by Dr. Bullet
Like Mike, when I saw this thread, I though "stay out of it", but then I thought "what the heck, it'll be fun". So then I was thinking...err, never mind

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I take it that the problem is conforming to immigrants and their wishes, thus being poltically correct. Assuming that is so, I'll go from there.

My opinion on the issue is this: when one goes to another country, one tries to at least be inoffensive. For instance, on one of my Mexico trips, I was told that a certain village found it to be socially unacceptable to wear shorts. Not wishing to offend the people, I observed their tradition and kept from offending the villagers. What I did not do is flaunt my individuality or American culture by wearing shorts.

This is not to say that I expect immigrants to partake in our traditions- far from it. I gladly extend them the privilige of being able to practice their own traditions because that's what makes our culture rich and adds to it. However, for immigrants to come here, treat those priviliges as a right, then expect me to abstain from my own traditions in deference to theirs is unacceptable. Our traditions go part and parcel with the country, and seeing as the immigrants are the ones coming here, they should understand that. If the native traditions are so offensive, then they can go somewhere where they aren't offended. Simply put, if they don't like the country, they can find another- no more, no less.

Fair points you make there Dr B!!!!

Warm Regards

[BADDOG]

Originally posted by BB/Mike*MFA*
America was established because of the religious and social intolerances of the Church and England and The British Monarch, it was a place where people could come a practise their traditions and religion freely. Although now it seems that the US has truned into what it was established to get away from, that is, unless you are part of the majorty then you will be "persecuted" for it.

Any american resident/citizen has the right to communicate in whatever language they want, the declaration of independance states that "all men are created equal" which means you are not superior, and hence not in a position to tell other to learn a language because it pleases you.. Its called the freedom of speech, 1st amendment....

Immigrants have done alot for the United States, think about how much richer your life is just by being exposed to the foods of different cultures, but according to the arguments here, thats a moral outrage, immigrants should conform to american traditions, its a travesty that they eat foods typical of their culture, if they want to live in America they should eat purely amercian foods!

BD, the labels of native-american, latin-american etc etc is something largely promoted by the government for use in things like census data and the like and not by people of the groups themselves, even so, its not a bad thing that people want to be associated with race as well as country, it makes sence that they are proud of their heritage as they are of being american. I see no difference between that and say, describing yourself as english, irish, scottish or welsh as opposed to being from the United Kingdom...

I better stop there...

Once again Mike I'm aware of the points you make but I can see how many people here in the United Kingdom and in the United Staes do feel a certain resentment at the concessions that are made to many immigrants that come to our shores.

We have absorbed many people into the British isles and for the most part there are very few problems between the various racial, ethnic gropus who live side by side in the U.K.


We do expect them to respect our culture and traditions as we respect theirs and at thsi time of year we happen to be looking forward to celebrating Christmas and as such we do not want to refer to it as !midwinter fest" or what ever because it might offend some muslims or who ever!

Live and let live by all means but if you choose to come here then please live by our laws and rules of conduct, make a new home for yourself in a very liberal and tolerant country by all means but don't expect us to accept what is acceptable in the country you originate from as it might not be acceptable here.

Warm Regards

[DevilDog#1]

I'm sorry to say BD but I see more racial tension in UK than in any part of the world, well maybe in Somalia. Not trying to say US is perfect but city wide rioting is very common in UK, Bradford etc.

[Dr. Bullet]

Originally posted by BB/Mike*MFA*
America was established because of the religious and social intolerances of the Church and England and The British Monarch, it was a place where people could come a practise their traditions and religion freely. Although now it seems that the US has truned into what it was established to get away from, that is, unless you are part of the majorty then you will be "persecuted" for it.

Any american resident/citizen has the right to communicate in whatever language they want, the declaration of independance states that "all men are created equal" which means you are not superior, and hence not in a position to tell other to learn a language because it pleases you.. Its called the freedom of speech, 1st amendment....

Immigrants have done alot for the United States, think about how much richer your life is just by being exposed to the foods of different cultures, but according to the arguments here, thats a moral outrage, immigrants should conform to american traditions, its a travesty that they eat foods typical of their culture, if they want to live in America they should eat purely amercian foods!

BD, the labels of native-american, latin-american etc etc is something largely promoted by the government for use in things like census data and the like and not by people of the groups themselves, even so, its not a bad thing that people want to be associated with race as well as country, it makes sence that they are proud of their heritage as they are of being american. I see no difference between that and say, describing yourself as english, irish, scottish or welsh as opposed to being from the United Kingdom...

I better stop there...

What it seems to be right now is the majority is being persecuted. I honestly don't see anyone saying telling the muslims they can't practice their holidays. In fact, I hear more about changing Christmas and everything to do with it than I do any other kind of holiday, and the reason is supposedly that it's offensive to the immigrants. Tell me how that is right.

I disagree. Until a person is naturalized, it is a privilige we extend to them. Also, you know as well as I do that the language of the first amendment is not about spoken language. I won't explain it because I know it would be an insult to your intelligence.

One's heritage and how they identify with it is shouldn't present itself in labels. I'm extremely proud of my German heritage, but I don't say that I'm a German-American or European-American. Why? Because I'm an American, plain and simple. My loyalties don't lie in Germany or Europe, they lie in this great country of mine. Where immigrants are concerned, I can understand how they too would be proud of their country, but it seems to me you can only be loyal to one. When the Civil War broke out, Robert E. Lee was offered the position of commander of the Union Army. He said that as much as he loved the Union, his loyalties were with Virginia, and he fought for Virginia. That's what it comes down to- where do your loyalties lie?

[Lakie]

so, you know as well as I do that the language of the first amendment is not about spoken language. I won't explain it because I know it would be an insult to your intelligence.

Actually, the 1st amendment does cover verbal communication, the supreme court ruled in Schenck v. United States that unless the speech posed a "clear and present danger" then it is protected by the first amendment. This is where justice Holmes famously used the shouting fire in a packed threatre example of a clear and present danger, and hence wasnt covered by the 1stamendment

And like i said, labels like native-american and the like are largely used by governments for research and data collection purposes, not by the groups themselves....

[BADDOG]

Originally posted by BB/Mike*MFA*
Actually, the 1st amendment does cover verbal communication, the supreme court ruled in Schenck v. United States that unless the speech posed a "clear and present danger" then it is protected by the first amendment. This is where justice Holmes famously used the shouting fire in a packed threatre example of a clear and present danger, and hence wasnt covered by the 1stamendment

And like i said, labels like native-american and the like are largely used by governments for research and data collection purposes, not by the groups themselves....

That's strange Mike because I've heard both black and muslim immigrants here in England refer to themselves as "black British or muslim British" and that whilst I was at work so that's hardly being labelled by government for research?

Dr B is right you should show your first loyalty to the country you live in and not to the nation you've left behind, you don't have to deny your heritage but you cannot expect to ram it down the throats of the people in your adoptive country.

Warm Regards

[BADDOG]

Originally posted by DevilDog#1
I'm sorry to say BD but I see more racial tension in UK than in any part of the world, well maybe in Somalia. Not trying to say US is perfect but city wide rioting is very common in UK, Bradford etc.

That is true and it's a fairly recent phenomenon DD but then we are at war and we do have a large muslim community that resents our part in that war. If they do not support our nation perhaps they should go and riot in the land of their ethnic origin?

There is racial tension in most major cities at some time or other both here and abroad as we've witnessed in Paris quite recently so the U.K. is hardly unique in this regard.

We have still absorbed many millions of people without to much tension but undeniablly the amount of tension is growing as we the native population question the whole idea of a "multi cultural" society that seems only to care about the needs of immigrants and ignores the wishes of the "ethnic" majoirty!

Regards

[DevilDog#1]

Originally posted by Dr. Bullet
What it seems to be right now is the majority is being persecuted. I honestly don't see anyone saying telling the muslims they can't practice their holidays. In fact, I hear more about changing Christmas and everything to do with it than I do any other kind of holiday, and the reason is supposedly that it's offensive to the immigrants. Tell me how that is right.

And what do you call Patriot Act 1 and 2? These lawys were being worked in Congress since 1997.

If you've studied Political Science, you'd know, that persecution doesn't have to be done by force. Once is forced in certain situation where one has to face those laws and provisions of laws which make them clear target.

I partly blame the Muslims for their current delima as they inadequately communicated their religious convictions and beliefs to the Western World and let it be hijacked by band of religious fanatics allowing it be branded as a religion of terrosits. I also blame the people of the western nations for knowing more about their new fellow citizens and reading about them in books like the "Satanic Verses" and listening to leaders who had their own agendas and loyalties to certain lobbies and interest groups.

[Dr. Bullet]

Originally posted by BB/Mike*MFA*
Actually, the 1st amendment does cover verbal communication, the supreme court ruled in Schenck v. United States that unless the speech posed a "clear and present danger" then it is protected by the first amendment. This is where justice Holmes famously used the shouting fire in a packed threatre example of a clear and present danger, and hence wasnt covered by the 1stamendment

And like i said, labels like native-american and the like are largely used by governments for research and data collection purposes, not by the groups themselves....

I didn't say verbal communication, I said spoken language, as in English or French.

You think I like the Patriot Act? It punishes every law-abiding citizen imho. I'm fighting it as hard as anyone else.

Mike, I live in one of the most native indian populated states. I am surrounded on all sides by Indian lands. They will get violent if called indian. I've encountered much of the same from many blacks too...they insist on being called african american. Many, not all of course, but many.

[BADDOG]

Well I say again this has been a very interesting debate with all sides putting over some very good points.
It is sad that as a race we are incapable of over coming our many differences but I suppose that's human nature and we will always differ on some issues such as race, colour or creed because that's how we define ourselves and our differences.

Imigration will continue to cause controversy between those who advocate it and those who feel threatened by it, (and in todays world I would say there is some justification for that fear), but let us all hope that we can resolve these issues peacefully where ever we may be.

Warm Regards

[achilles]

just a quick thought here...

arnt we all just imagrints? if u trace your family back all people (besides native americans or any one that was origionaly there) are imagrints because the first people here (not including Native americans) came over from some different country so this argument is really pointless unless you are a native american

Anyone agree?

[BADDOG]

I think it's safe to say the human race has roamed all over the globe through out the earths history and I suppose human beings will continue to do so.

Regards